Is the Bible as violent as the Koran? The answer is YES, if you talk to many Muslims and Liberals. But are they really? The following is a short discussion I had with a liberal about the subject. I hope to show you that they are not and that all non-Muslims should be uniting and working against Islam, not only because it is an institution that is a Human Rights nightmare, but because Islam really does have the submission of the whole world to Islam as it’s goal.
When you bring up the Koran or Hadith, many scream context context context,, claiming that if read in their proper context, they really don’t say what they say – so it’s all good, just relax.
Dr. Mark Durie (author of The Third Choice) confronts this misconception in his article,, A Dozen Bad Ideas for the 21st Century and says “8. The belief that putting something in context will always produce a more innocuous interpretation. This is not true. Attending properly to context can make a text even more offensive than it would otherwise have been. Conversely, if you take something out of context you may regard it more positively than you ought to. In reality, radical interpretations of the Qur’an, such as are used to support terrorism, almost always involve an appeal to a rich understanding of the context in which the Qur’an was revealed, including the life of Muhammad. On the other hand, many have taken peaceful verses of the Qur’an out of context, in order to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion”.
I think my responses in the exchange below do a fairly good job of showing that if put in their proper context, the Bible does not say what many who wish to obfuscate with false moral equivalences want it to say, and the Koran says and means exactly what many people fervently hope and pray that it does not really say and mean. For many, the obvious, when looking into the context, is just too much to bear – so we have a generation with their heads in the sand.
I have been spending much of my time at Eric Allen Bells’ Facebook page and new website for the past month or so. You may not know him yet, but he is a liberal film maker and writer who had a drastic change of view about Islam, and much of everything else, as a result of doing a documentary on the mega-mosque in Murfreesboro Tennessee. For Eric, the impetus to look at Islam again was a conversation he had with a Christian Coptic Cab driver in which the driver disagreed with him that the changes happening in Egypt are a good thing. The driver told him a regime change would be fatal to his family back home. For me the impetus was the responce of Muslims and non-Muslims, around the world and online, to Pastor Terry Jones’s Burn A Koran Day almost two years ago (you can read my short testimony about it in the sidebar). To get people up to speed on Eric’s amazing story, I usually give them this article called The High Price of Telling The truth About Islam You can see the amazing work he has done on exposing and opposing the mosque in Tennessee (since his change of mind) here, that has resulted in him quickly becoming a big player in the counter-jihad movement and him being featured on Fox News in the past and twice in the last few days.
As a result of these Fox News appearances, the leftist online media is featuring the recent videos also because Eric is very blunt and right on in his assertions about Islam, most specifically that Islam is “the worst, most deadly idea in the history of the world”. Those two videos are posted here (at media matters – the site my exchange is on). I think all three videos are a must see as rarely have such truths about Islam been spoken freely on any mainstream media. Eric has been studying Islam now for about 2 years and he knows his stuff and is very articulate.
Here is all three segments on one video at Youtube
At Media Matters I seen the commentary said this about Eric’s videos.. “But it should come as no surprise that Bolling endorsed Bell’s extreme anti-Muslim comments, as he has a history of extreme, anti-Muslim comments himself”. I found this laughable so I posted this…
“But it should come as no surprise that Bolling endorsed Bell’s extreme anti-Muslim comments, as he has a history of extreme, anti-Muslim comments himself.”
Eric Allen Bell must be a prophet or something! Didn’t he just tell everyone that when he said ISLAM – you’d hear MUSLIM?
ISLAM IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE,,, DUMMY!!!
Qur’an:9:29 – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Qur’an:8:39 – “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 – “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Bukhari:8:387 – “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’
… Then the following exchange happened. The Liberals first response was.
Two people can play this pointlessly petty game:
Ezekiel 9:6 “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . “Isaiah 13:16 “Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.”Deuteronomy 13:15 “Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . “Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . “Exodus 32:27 “. . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.”Deut 21:10-12 “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; “Exodus 31:15 ” . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”Deut 21:21 “And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . “
Seriously and that is just the first five books.
The remaining responses are as follows. My first…
One thing you don’t have in your “game”,,, is open ended commands in the OT to fight unbelievers, because they are unbelievers, until they believe or accept institutionalized subjugation.
Conversely there are 527 verses of intolerance toward non-Muslims, and 109 verses specifically advocating violence towards non-Muslims in the Koran. Many of them (as the ones above) calling for total dominance of Islam. The Koran even tells us the purpose of Islam…
Qur’an 48:28 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness.
The bible verses you quote are descriptive historical accounts, not imperatives to violence with totalitarian ends. But the Koran has no storyline or narrative and is mostly commands. Of which only 39% are spiritual (what Muslims do to get to heaven) and 61% political (how Muslims are to treat non-Muslims).
However the only potential comparison in the bible is the alleged “genocide” verses in the narratives of the Jewish conquest of Canaan. But if your not a Canaanite they don’t apply to you and the commands where specifically to Israel for one time period and situation only. Even though these verses may appear to be commands of genocide, they are not because hyperbolic war rhetoric was the norm of the day and the over-riding command was to drive out the Canaanites, and the Jews did not even do that.
On the flip side, Muhammad carried out the commands in the Koran and Muslims have been doing so until this day, since before MO died. You don’t think Islam invaded and conquered most of the known world (at one time) for defensive purposes, do ya?
“One thing you don’t have in your “game”,,, is open ended commands in the OT to fight unbelievers, because they are unbelievers, until they believe or accept institutionalized subjugation. “
Nah, because the OT didn’t practice subtlety. From Deuteronomy
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,[a] all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.
2 “ If there is found in your midst, in any of your [a]towns, which the Lord your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4 and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to [b]death. 6 On the[c]evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the [d]evidence of one witness. 7 The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Now does this mean the Bible is an evil book that advocates the murder of infidels?
Your double standard is so obvious it sees double. How is the “hyperbolic war rhetoric” of the Jews any different than the one of the Muslims? From where did you even get that number of intolerant verses? They sound to be completely contradictory with actual Islamic law as well as the customs of the time.
“From where did you even get that number of intolerant verses?”
Sixty-one percent of the Quran is about non-Muslims
527 verses of intolerance toward non-Muslims,
109 verses specifically advocating violence towards non-Muslims.
“They sound to be completely contradictory with actual Islamic law as well as the customs of the time.”
LOL,,, Sharia institutionalizes Islamic supremacy, the subjugation of the people of the book (Jews and Christians – and later Zoroastrians),,,, and all others don’t have the third option of dhimmitude – for them it is convert or die, if you cannot flee. This was the SOP of Islam from the times of Muhammad until the dissolving of the ottoman empire caliphate in the early 1900’s and is still the SOP in some Muslim controlled countries today. As far as customs of the time are concerned, you have to read the Sunna of Muhammad (Hadiths – sayings and traditions of MO, and the Sira – the early Islamic biographies of MO),, to understand them,,,, have you read any of them?
“Your double standard is so obvious it sees double. How is the “hyperbolic war rhetoric” of the Jews any different than the one of the
No double standard at all. If you read the text you just posted it says “If you hear in one of your cities” and “If there is found in your midst, in any of your [a]towns”,,, that God had ‘given” them – these commands are to Israel only and for one specific place (the land of Canaan) and one specific time. They are not at all open commands for Jews to fight or kill someone because they are not Jews. Other passages in Deuteronomy basically say to the Jews as they enter the land of Cannon to “kill them all” (my paraphrase),, such as…
Deu 20:15-17 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
…. but (as noted above) if your not one of the Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, or Jebusites (in other words – a Canaanite), at a specific time in Canaan – these verses do not apply to you. And the same “kill them all” rhetoric is applied the Jews themselves (as punishment from God), if they do not follow the commands. But when you read the historical account of the conquest of Canaan in the book of Joshua you see that there are still many Canaanites left in the land, they don’t all get killed (or even driven out) and Israel does not get utterly destroyed for not follwing the commands. WHY is this? Because the thrust of the commands are “driving out” and “thrusting out” the Canaanites (Exodus 23:28; Leviticus 18:24; Numbers 33:52: Deuteronomy 6:19; 7:1; 9:4; 18:12; Joshua 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11,14) and “dispossessing” the Canaanites of their land (Numbers 21:32; Deuteronomy 9:1; 11:23; 18:14; 19:1; etc.). “Driving out” or “dispossessing” is different from “wiping out” or “destroying.” This shows that utter annihilation was not intended and the “kill them all” passages are the type of war rhetoric that was commonly used in the ancient near east.
But with Islam, there is very little chronological, storyline or narrative context in the Koran as it is not a book of history like the Bible. To put the Koran in context you have to read the Sunna of Muhammad (Hadiths – sayings and traditions of MO, and the Sira – the early Islamic biographies of MO). And they show that MO and Islam was not just using war rhetoric.
Again, You don’t think Islam invaded and conquered most of the known world (at one time) for defensive purposes, do ya? For your enlightenment….
Blaise Pascal said,,,, “Mahomet established a religion by putting his enemies to death; Jesus Christ by commanding his followers to lay down their lives.”
…. and if you know anything about history – you’ll know it’s true. Christianity conquered the Roman Empire (without lifting a sword) when Constantine became Christian through the preaching of the good news of Jesus Christ. But Islam conquered all of it’s territories (except for Pakistan) with the sword. And if it had not been for Charles the Hammer Martel at the battle of Tours and two successful defenses at the gates of Vienna – all of Europe (and probably the whole world) would be Islamic today.
LEARN MORE HERE
JIHAD: From MECCA to WW2
Four non-Christian works
Does the Bible really inspire violence like the Koran?
Comparing Jesus and Muhammad side by side
Why I’m Worried About Islam But Not Christianity
What About The Violent Passages In The Bible?
His third response…
No thanks. I don’t need to learn how to be a bigot. I’m pretty happy how i am.
And my final response to his…
Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. http://www.merriam-webster.com…
Your the one, because of your ignorance and prejudices, that is falsely trying to say the Bible is equally violent to the Koran,,, when it is not – and the Bible has open ended commands to kill non-believers as the Koran does,,when it don’t.
About 2 years ago I heard Pastor Terry Jones say,, “Islam is of the Devil”. I was repulsed and sent him a nasty little letter calling him a bigot, Islamophobe and non-Christian, among other things. But then I went to his facebook page for his burn a koran day, and two FB pages against it,, and what I seen shocked me.
It went like this,,,”we will kill you all if you burn our Koran”,, and non Muslims responded by saying,,, “not if we kill you all first”. The non-muslims where posting videos of Muslims burning people alive, beheading people, stoning people, hanging people, beating women,,etc. I had seen a couple of these videos but had no idea there where so many. And of course on 9/11 they was showing all the tributes on TV which included the jumpers from the towers, I was really overwhelmed but still spent a total of five days on those facebook pages. One day as soon as I awoke, it dawned on me that I never seen a single Muslim denounce those atrocious videos without also half heartedly justifying them. And many Muslims outright condoned the terrible acts. That day I noticed that far to many of the ones who condoned such acts where living in the west. I knew right then that there are not as many “moderate Muslims” as myself and most people thought.
So I read the Koran for the third time, this time referring to the Sunna to properly interpret it’s jumbled mess. And now I totally agree with Jones that Islam is of the Devil. And I know that if anyone does not also think so,,, they are simply blindly biased and/or ignorant and have not read the Islamic holy trilogy.
“Over a billion people believe in Allah without truly knowing what Allah supposedly stands for or what he really demands of them. And the minority that do understand continue to be Moslems because they have redefined their morality and ethics to fit within the teachings of Islam, which are floridly lacking in morality. They therefore redefine what is good and evil in order to fit their lives into what is preached by Islam, instead of examining Islam to see if it fits within the good life. Backwards thinking, imposed by a backward religion”. — Professor Bertrand Russell
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” — Albert Einstein
I hope the exchange above helps some people see and get active. Obviously there is much in the bible that many, including some Christians, find reprehensible. Those Christians chose to ignore these and other bible difficulties instead of wrestling with them. And many non-Christians care not to wrestle with these scriptures and those that counter and balance them. A new FB friend said that the Old Testament God is an “asshole”. But myself and many Christians do not see Him as an asshole, but rather a loving father and lover of all souls. New Atheist Richard Dawkins said in his book The God Delusion…
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
It’s extreme mis-characterizations like this that lead some non-Christians to ask Christians… you don’t really believe in this kind of God, do you? THE ANSWER IS SIMPLY NO. I have been studying the topic of Old Testament Ethics and God’s behavior. The topic is deep and immense, and I started to write on the subject but there was too much to cover concisely,, so now am trying to come up with a good outline for brevity’s sake and will be writing on the topic in the future. I hope you will subcribe to my blog and read that work when it comes out.
In the least, I hope this exchange, and the material in it, will cause some to see that the Bible is not as violent as the Koran,,,, and that we must all put our differences aside and work together. Over at Bell’s sites, we are all working together in a secular and non-partisan way. He rightfully does not allow promotion of any religion or political party on his sites, but often says we all have to work together.
On this video, I seen a very interesting series of comments between two atheist as to whether atheist should band with Christians to stand against Islam or not. I think I’ll close with that exchange as it speaks volumes. And I would like to encourage ALL Christians to also work with everyone else to stand against Islam – it’s simply a necessity. Please lay off the evangelism until you have developed relationships with some of our fellows in this fight. Then we can have their ears to hear why we don’t think the God of the OT is an asshole, and He loves them too.
the problem for me is the association of conservatives with the religious right. I am opposed to people like Falwell,Robertson as much as I am against radical Islam. I hate to think Passion of the Christ is a movie people would associate with me..lol. Prefer Hitchens, Murray,Dersh, Kamm etc
adstanra 4 days ago
In principle, all non-evidence based beliefs should be confrotned, but right now, we should be drawing a distintion between Islam and other beliefs. It is a major tactically error to reject an alliance with christianity in the fight against islam, merely because it is also another religion.
I wonder what sort of ally these people are? We fight for liberty and the primacy of rational thinking over religion and ancient books written by primitive people. Islam is the greater threat at the moment, for sure, but we need to frame our arguments against it based upon reason, not holy books.
The primary reason I fight Islam, isn’t because its an irrational dogma, but because its a dangerous political ideology that threatens liberty. Christians understand this threat just as much as atheists do. We share with Christians an appreciation of many things, like women’s rights, free speech, freedom of thought etc, and our alliance should be based on these things. Rationality of beliefs, is important, but defending basic liberties is more important. And this is why we should team up,
If we are going to fight a military war, we will team up with Christians, perhaps fighting the same enemy for different reasons. I admit that most “Christians” are liberal, in so far as they don’t take their religion too seriously and are in fact secular, but if we are going to fight a war of ideas, Christians like those i mentioned, are going to be useless to us. They are going to argue that their holy book is better than the Qu’ran etc.We need to fight irrational ideology everywhere.
I would settle (for now) with Muslims becoming Christians. Ive got a feeling that the Christian argument to somebody already committed to religion, would be more pervasive then the atheist argument, i may be wrong tho. So I dont mind them trying to use their religious arguments (even if I think its a bad argument), while we atheists attack on a different front. I just dont want to get bogged down ins religious arguments with Christians when more important things, like womens rights are trampled
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